forgiving one another ...

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forgiving one another ...

Postby BC Editor on 25 Nov 2007, 17:43

Dear all,

recently I was reading along in a forum where folks exchanged various ideas and points concerning "forgiveness". From Jesus' words as recorded in Mt 6:14,15, it is apparent how important it is for us to forgive others.
[verse]Mt 6:14,15 (KJV)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.[/verse]
When should and can forgiveness be granted? Are there stipulations in Scripture, such as what is to be done when the other person is not even asking for forgiveness, perhaps because he/she does not even consider that what they did was a tresspass and something wherewith they wronged a person?
God bless you,
Wolfgang Schneider

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Re: forgiving one another ...

Postby Durbin on 30 May 2009, 00:02

I believe in forgiveness but I believe in common sense too. It's nice to see a person see their error and truly be sorry. Like in many criminal cases the convicted person may never show remorse. Is there really any faith in a seared and calloused conscience where people only look for opportunities to them? When their apology is more for seeking better social acceptance than a true apology.

On the other hand I've seen true apologies that go unforgiven. People err and screw up and the wronged just feel too much personal injury over it to forgive.

I'm not putting my stock in many NT books as "the word of God" anymore from my own personal study and reading scholars introductions to them. Like quoting Matthew's Gospel for Jesus' words when scholars tell us the apostle Matthew is not the author, nor an eyewitness the author but the early tradition of the "fathers" once again fails us. (Maybe I need to forgive them? :/ ) I think the core message with common sense does more. Does God really not want me to fogive people? Who am I anyways? I am not the judge of men's souls. Maybe walking by the spirit with wisdom is the way to go. Galatians 5

"Love bombing" only goes so far, kinda naive. Heart heartedness and is probably worse. Isn't there supposed to be a degree of soberness in giving account to God knowing His forgiveness for ourselves yet reminded we aren't asked by Him to be stupid?

Some of the Gospel accounts of forgiveness if taken literally look like a departure from the doctrine of the gospel of grace in Paul's epistles. To me there are many problems with the supposed quotes of Jesus in the Gospels. Picking and choosing the "true" quotes then must be a personal matter or the work of professional textual criticism. I myself prefer just good heartedness and common sense with prayer and for NT Scripture the undisputed Pauline letters but that's just me. Believing in God's leading our lives. Proverbs - Trust in the Lord

Still I have no problem forgiving anybody, just like to see true repentence. Then when there is true apology I like to see forgiveness but it's not always so easy for people.

This may be a different opinion and not in line with you're question but it's how I feel. But yeah I can forgive anybody who's sorry, God usually shows the right way or even always does. :/
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Re: forgiving one another ...

Postby BC Editor on 31 May 2009, 14:24

HI John

Durbin wrote:... Some of the Gospel accounts of forgiveness if taken literally look like a departure from the doctrine of the gospel of grace in Paul's epistles.

would you have some examples?

Durbin wrote:To me there are many problems with the supposed quotes of Jesus in the Gospels. Picking and choosing the "true" quotes then must be a personal matter or the work of professional textual criticism. I myself prefer just good heartedness and common sense with prayer and for NT Scripture the undisputed Pauline letters but that's just me.

On what basis would you think that there are many problems with quptes from the Gospels, yet regard Pauline epistles as "undisputed"? There are claims by well recognized scholars that say that epistles ascribed to Paul are actually the work of his students ..

Durbin wrote: Still I have no problem forgiving anybody, just like to see true repentence. Then when there is true apology I like to see forgiveness but it's not always so easy for people. ...

How would you determine that someone's reaction is "true repentance" and not just "show"? What would characterize a "true apology"?

Indeed, it seems that forgiving others is not easy for people ... and some have a very hard time with it!
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Re: forgiving one another ...

Postby Durbin on 06 Jun 2009, 04:20

Hi Wolfgang. It's a pleasure to be allowed to post here and talk with you.

For Gospel accounts like if you do not fogive men their trespasses God will not fogive yours is one that I read literally. I think it's a good idea but as far as Jesus saying it, who knows? God and Jesus and the eye witnesses there I suppose.

I am just starting to accept the majority scholarly consensus on the New Testament. That is not to say no scholars at all consider the entire 27 books of the NT authoratiative, authentic and inspired. I think Metzger, FF Bruce and maybe Kurt Aland? are among conservative and well respected scholars that hold to the fundamental view. Easy to look up. Metzger is a pretty good read. And very well respected by his peers. But, scholarly consensus is not in agreement with them.

Warning: I am not a scholar I only knows what I reads! :/

Yeah for Paul's undisputed epistles I think I'm saying the same thing as you but maybe not communicated well. By undisputed I mean Romans, I & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians and Philemon. Then Ephesians and Colossians as "deutero-canonical" and the pastorals of 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus as psuedonymous.

Back on the subject of fogiveness and identity of true apology I'd have to say I just have to use experience, prayer and my brain to discern. It's hard to say with absoluteness on almost anything seeing we all are human. Perhaps sympathy with another when I recall my own shortcomings and my own true sorrow then if I was forgiven or not. What conduct or attitude should follow an apology? Perhaps a protected, "apology accepted" yet continue to protect onself if not distance one's self until a faithfull pattern of conduct is seen.

Hey by the way Wolfgang, here as I type the text box jumps up and down. I guess there is a length of text "bug"?

Anyways, I guess forgiving people is a part of growth and maturity. Not too naive but not too hard hearted.

God bless.
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